HOME	4. "Objective we" and "Subjective we"

　　Firstly from br Lee's life study message of Colossians.
　　In his message he says.......

When Christ was incarnated and born in the manger in Bethlehem, He put humanity on Himself. This humanity included us and all of creation as well. Hence, even before we were born, Christ put us on Himself. As Christ passed through human living, we passed through it with Him. Furthermore, when He went to the cross and was crucified, we were crucified with Him. Then we were buried with Him in the tomb. In fact, all of creation was buried there. Thus, Christ’s tomb was an all-inclusive tomb. We have also resurrected and ascended with Christ. Now, even while we are participating in the church life, we are sitting with Him in the heavenlies. On the one hand, we are in the church on earth; on the other hand, we are in Christ in the heavenlies. There is a great deal of traffic between the heavens and the church, traffic that moves faster than the speed of light. Actually, to refer to such traffic is to speak from a human point of view. From God’s point of view, the heavens and the church are one. Therefore, to be in the church is to be in the heavens.(Colossians Life Study M27)

In His incarnation Christ involved all of the creation including us the humanity in His flesh and He passed through human living and crucifixion, resurrection and ascension with all things including us. Moreover, he says that there is a great deal of traffic between heaven and the church.

The "we" who are included in Christ from His incarnation to His ascension, I call them “Objective we“(in red-letters).

In “Objective we“, the people in the past, Adam and many people who lived in the Old Testament ages and those in the New Testament ages Peter, Paul and many ones, and the ones who will be born and live in the future are included.
Unfortunately those who were/are not chosen were/are not included within the “Objective we“. These “Objective we“ and all things were wholly involved within the fleshly body of Christ. But I don't know how these were involved into His body. We only know that He was incarnated through Mary the virgin. It's a mystery.

On the other hand, the "we" the chosen ones who were born/will be born/ and lived/now living/will live life on this earth are called "Subjective we".
You who are now reading this writing belong to the "Subjective we".

“Objective we“ and "Subjective we" who are constituted with the Jews and the Gentiles are God's chosen ones.

And, there will be a risk to be strange and odd in understanding the Bible, if "Objective we" and "Subjective we" are not clearly distinguished.

For examples.....

Example 1.

For instance, Rom.Chapter 8 verse 30 on which already spoken before but let me tell you here again. Rome 8:30 And those whom He predestinated, these He also called; and those whom He called, these He also ^1ajustified; and those whom He justified, these He also ^2bglorified. About the time when this event did occur, all the Bible commentators, as I searched around, understand that the time is when man believed in Jesus, including br. Lee. If so, they can't explain "glorified". The Bible commentators tell various reasons. "Past tense is because the glory in the future is sure. " "Because there is no time in heaven. Past tense is according to the Hebrew grammar. " "They are very busy in explaining the past tense."And so on, .....

No!, Never! This is not the event when man believed in Jesus, but that when our Jesus Christ's crucifixion and resurrection 2,000 years ago. This is the event worked out on "Objective we". Then, all the problems are over.

Through net searching, Calvin, John-Peter-Lange、Matthew-Henry、Jamieson-Fausset-Brown, Wesley, Expositors Bible commentary, Pulpit commentary..... They all failed!

Then, we have br Lee's explanations. Do you see he is not a little struggling?

I would now like to call your attention to the fact that in verse 30 all of the verbs are in past tense. Let us read this verse once again. “And whom He predestinated, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.” Since glorification will occur in the future, why does Paul say “glorified” and not “He will glorify”? Although glorification has not yet occurred, Paul uses the past tense. What does this mean? Once again we see that if we only read the Bible according to the black and white letters we will get into difficulty. I ask you, has glorification been accomplished? Why does the Apostle Paul here say “glorified”? Have you been glorified? The Bible says that we have been glorified already. Everything mentioned in verse 30 is an accomplished fact? predestinated, called, justified, and glorified. There is no problem with saying “predestinated,” because that was an action performed in the past. We may also say “called”; however, many people have not yet been called and we must preach the gospel to them that they may be called. Furthermore, although we have been justified, many new converts will be justified. Moreover, none of us, including Paul himself, has been glorified. Nevertheless, Paul put everything in the past tense. (Romans Life Study M21)

Example 2.

The following example is this.
Rom. 6:6

6:6 ¹Knowing this, that our ²old man has been ^3acrucified with Him in order that the ^4bbody of sin might be ⁵annulled, that we should no longer serve sin as slaves;

I wrote already what on earth "our old man"is.

I put it again here.

First, br Lee's Foot note.

Footnote 6:6-2
Referring to the natural life in our soul. The old man is our very being, which was created by God but became fallen through sin, and it is the same as the "I" in Gal. 2:20. It is not the soul itself but the life of the soul, which has been counted by God as hopeless and has been put on the cross and crucified with Christ. Formerly, our soul acted as an independent person, with the old man as its life and personality; now, since the old man has been crucified, our soul should act only as an organ of Christ and should be under the control of our spirit, having Christ as its life.

He says, Referring to the natural life in our soul.

But if you say, this life was crucified, and it should have been dead.
However, it is alive.
So, this definition is wrong.
If you read this note, you will be confused and complicated. How about you?
Then, I defined "our old man" as follows. "Our old man" is the "Objective we" since His incarnation to the crucifixion of Christ. "Objective we" are the "we"who were taken into the fleshly body of Christ. "Objective we" have the monopoly position in this definition. Except the recognition of “Objective we“, you can never be able to understand what "our old man"is. I did not know what our old man is for many many years.

Example 3. Concerning the new man

Eph.2:13-16
13 ¹But now in Christ Jesus you who were once ^2afar off have become ³near in the ^4bblood of Christ.
14 For He Himself is ¹our ^2apeace, He who has made ³both bone and has broken down the middle ⁴wall of partition, the ⁵enmity,
15 ^1aAbolishing in His ²flesh the ³law of the commandments in ⁴ordinances, that He might ⁵create the two ⁶in Himself ⁷into ⁸one ^bnew man, so ^9cmaking peace,
16 And might ^areconcile ¹both in ^2bone Body to ³God through the ⁴cross, having ⁵slain the enmity ⁶by it.

According to br. Lee, the one new man is the church, and the one body(v16) is the church, too. What can I say about it? Christ is now on the way from the cross to the resurrection.
It is not at all at the time when the church exists. Impossible!
It may be because of the words "both" the Jews and Gentiles and "one body", br. Lee might misunderstand them for the church on the earth. And he might have no recognition of the event that was going on on His private body. May be, because of the shortage of spiritual light. This part of his life study message 24 of Ephesians, that I began to consider about “Objective we“ and "Subjective we". By that time, when I could not understand his messages, I thought I had no ability to grasp them. But from that time, Wait! something problematic is here!, I began to think. And then, I came to consider his words critically, critically in a good sense.

On one hand, he says that the one new man is the church, on the other hand he says to put on the new man. This is a contradiction. And It made me so suspicious.
It was around May, 1998, 19 years ago from now(Feb.2017).
In September 23, 1999, leading a brothers'(may be about 200 brs) meeting was held in Tokyo. After that I was given a time to present concerning the "Objective we" and the Spirit that includes the human element. About eight brothers were there. Br. Ryu Swei(劉遂兄弟), another Chinese speaking brother, br.Y(吉○兄弟), br. H(広○兄弟), br.K(金○兄弟), br. S(桜○兄弟) and other saints, total around 8 brothers were there.
There I released a paper to each brother with the title of "the new man, the dwelling place of God, the mystery of Christ" which says that these three are within the spirit of the believers and these are not only of the tri-une God but also human element the “Objective we“ are included in them..

After my speaking, there was no question and answer . I didn't know why. Three years later I knew why. But a few days later br. K gave me a letter. His opinion was not with me but a polite letter. Thereafter, the attitude of brothers and sisters in the church to me were different, and it was difficult for me to attend the meeting, finally I said bye bye to them. It might be end of Sep. 1999.
Three years later, br. Y responded me saying....

(200)02/3/29
Brother Mr. Higashi Nobuo

Sorry to say, I cannot give the answer to your letter.
The reason is very simple.
① If I said your presentation was right, you might be pleased but and I'd be blamed by the Holy Spirit in me.
② If I said you were wrong, you might get angry.

Therefore, I thought it was best not to answer. I will not answer to you also in the future.
We receive the supply of life and the light from the materials by br. Nee and br. Lee. However, there is no supply and no true light in your things.

With an unresponsive strategy to me, I was handled and played. And I was playing an one-man-play. With the local church the connection was cut off almost completely. But a saint called me and we talked about “Objective we“ and etc, I finally made up my mind to set up a home page again. The truth of the Bible is not only for the local church but also for all the believers. The home page title is "Biblical Truth Notes 2", "2" means "second". For, about 17 years ago, I set up the first "Biblical Truth Notes".The first one was stopped because I changed the provider.

Suddenly in the evening of January 24, someone mailed me that he visited this site. He was one of them whom I talked about the "Objective we" and he showed a little understanding, more than 20 years ago 20 years later and now, he was a grown up 37-year-old brother.

He remembered the "Objective we". I was so surprised and so glad. But how pitiful are the elderly people! Blockheaded and seems unable to follow the new concept. New? I don't think it be a so new one.
3 or 4 months ago, a brother called me.
He said "I heard about you, br Ron said, 'Out of the question'."

Ahah, it must be about that, I thought. May be, about that presentation I told above "the new man, the dwelling place of God, the mystery of Christ". He may have said about it, "Out of the question". If it's true, oh poor people. Nearly 20 years have passed, do these people not understood that, yet? Have they kept my paper even today? If so, I'm grateful for them.
Or only they may have talked about me saying, brother Ron, a brother had claimed that the Spirit include the human element and he said this human element is “Objective we“. What do you think? His answer, "Out of the question". Like this? The young brother is not restricted in stereotype, he is very good, such ones should lead the church.
Sorry, I have gotten off track.
Now, let us go back to the original subject. Distinction between “Objective we“ and "Subjective we" is very important to understand the Bible clearly so that something out of question may not occur. How vague are br. Lee's and other opponents' recognition of the "Objective we"!

Eph. 2:5-6
5 Even when we were ^adead in offenses, made us ^1balive ²together with ³Christ (by ^4cgrace you have been ⁵saved)
6 And ^1araised us up ²together with Him and ^3bseated us together with Him in the ^4cheavenlies ⁵in Christ Jesus,.

Of course, they admit above verses as an objective fact. However, concerning one new man in 2:14-16, Br. Lee says it's the church, and one body in v.16 also the church the body of Christ. Here, He has no recognition of "Objective we", as if he forgot completely about it.
Why? I thought and concluded. His recognition or understanding of the “Objective we“ is so vague and obscure and too abstract and fairlytale-like. In his letter to me in 1998 (before the presentation), br. Y strongly opposed about this matter. In the tri-une God, there should never be the element of human beings saying, "To say that the Holy Spirit includes the believers, God is not tri-une but many millions-of-millions-une God will come out.

Eph.2:6 And raised us up together with Him and seated us together with Him in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,.

This is an objective fact which were accomplished in Christ Jesus 2,000 years ago. Today we subjectively experience this fact in spirit, if you say 'The Holy Spirit include the believers' the trinity will collapse and God will not be the tri-une. The tri-une God is tri-une God from eternity to eternity." The tri-unity must never be violated. He seems restrained by a kind of stereotype. The "objective fact" in this sentence smells bad. This objective fact smells that it is a fact but for him something not real and vague event. He seems to recognize it only a vague one. I exchanged letters with him for several times concerning “Objective we“. And then I requested the presentation. It may have been considerably troublesome for him.
When I come now, it was not a little sorry.

Br. K who sent me a polite letter soon after the presentation in 1999.
He says...
When the Spirit is given to the believers it includes believers. This is so humanly. We also are processed having "objective element of myself" and ascend with Christ and then come down even to myself.... Within the Spirit I am not included, am I?

God did and does strange things. So, one of His names is "Wonderful" (Is. 9:6).
It seems too strange and crazy for the opposers, that the Spirit includes “Objective we“ in it.

In all the processes, the human living, the crucifixion, the resurrection and the ascension, united together strongly,
and when God go down to the earth to work, toward the "Objective we" does He say to them,
"You all sit on the throne or have a walk around in the heaven. We the tri-une God go down and do our works"

And tri-une God come down to the earth?
Isn't it an extreme contradiction, and be logic failure?

Example 4. About all the fullness

Col.1:19-22
19 For in Him ¹all the ^2afullness was pleased to dwell
20 And ¹through Him to ^areconcile ^2ball things to ³Himself, ^4chaving made peace through the ^dblood of His cross -- ¹through Him, whether the ^ethings on the earth or the things in the ⁵heavens.
21 And you, though once ^aalienated and ^1benemies in your ^2cmind because of your evil works,22 ¹He now has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you ^aholy and without blemish and without reproach before ¹Him;
1:,19 o=ti e]n au]tw#j eu]do;khsen pa#n to' plh;rwma katoikh#sai
20 kai' di ] au]tou# a]pokatalla;xai ta' pa;nta ei]v au]to;n ei]rhnopoih;sav dia' tou# ai=matov tou# staurou# au]tou# di ] au]tou# ei/te ta' e]pi' th#v gh#v ei/te ta' e]n toi#v ou]ranoi#v
21 Kai' u[ma#v pote o/ntav a]phllotriwme;nouv kai' e]cyrou'v th#j dianoi;aj e]n toi#v e/rgoiv toi#v ponhroi#v nuni; de; a]pokath;llaxen
22 e]n tw#j sw;mati th#v sarko'v au]tou# dia' tou# yana;tou parasth#sai u[ma#v a[gi;ouv kai' a]mw;mouv kai' a]negklh;touv katenw;pion au]tou#

"All things" in verse 20 should be called "Objective all things".
For, it is necessary for all things to be involved into His own body that they may be reconciled unto Him.
And, after they were reconciled, all things became all the fullness in their resurrection.

Br. Lee says, "This fullness is God Himself expressed". (Collosians life study M10 all the fullness)

No, this is a mistake! All the fullness is not God Himself expressed. All the fullness must be told in relation to the reconciliation of all things. From the context in v.19 and 20, all the fullness must be all things which were reconciled and made peace through the blood of Christ.

Br. Lee says about all the fullness in relation to all things as I searched in his message here only this one.
This fullness was pleased to dwell in the Son and to reconcile all things to Himself for His expression.
(ibid. THE EXPRESSION OF GOD IN ALL HIS RICH BEING)

All things are spoken only nominally. And, all things are what exist on the earth or the things in the heavens. These exist in the universe so vast. These all things in the universe had been involved into the fleshly body of Christ. Who believe this? It's understandable that the believers' recognition is so vague.

In verse 21,
And you, though once ^aalienated and ^1benemies in your ^2cmind because of your evil works,

"And you," shows that this verse is the continuation from the previous verse. It means that "You" are a part of reconciled all things, all the fullness. "You" also had problems in God's presence just like other all things. In verse 21 the appearance of “Objective we“ in the stage of the old man of the "Objective we" is written. Thus, from v19 to 21 are related, but in br. Lee's message, there is no relation either continuation. This verse shows that without clear recognition of “Objective we“, it's impossible for you to grasp what Paul intends.

And, these verses are related to the true tabernacle actually which is uttered in

03 All things were reconciled into the Son Christ and.....

I have written here for the necessity of the recognition of "Objective we".

End

“Objective we“ in the stages Christ took

incarnation->	human living->	crucifixion->	resurrection->	ascension->	the Spirit->
Christ involved into His fleshly body all things including “Objective we“		When He was crucified, all things including “Objective we“ were also slaughtered with Him.	All things including “Objective we“were reconciled into resurrected Christ and live in Him with the name "all the fullness"(Col.1:19-20).		The Spirit comes to "Subjective we" In it all the fullnes is included. All the fullnes is the reconciled all things including “Objective we“ in it.(Col.1:19-20)
<---　　　　　our old man(Rom6:6) 　　--- >			<--- one new man(Eph2:15) --->

2017/2/18（Sat）
東信男
Higashi Nobuo
ftmp2009☆gmail.com

Firstly from br Lee's life study message of Colossians. In his message he says.......

　　Firstly from br Lee's life study message of Colossians.
　　In his message he says.......